Talk:Stress (biology)

Circular definition of stress

First statement defines stress in terms of a Stressor. Then, the linked article about Stressor defines it in terms of stress. That is a totally circular definition and doesn't really help me to understand what stress is. 109.183.181.224 (talk) 12:10, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

I fully agree. I just came here to say the same. "Stress is caused by a stressor [which is something that causes stress]" Seriously? 78.28.78.218 (talk) 20:02, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Requesting admin to clean up

Under "Biological Need for Equilibrium" heading: "The brain cannot sustain a concentrated equilibrium under chronic stress, overtime if you constantly struggle in a simmering sea of stress, and you body budget accrued an ever-deepening deficit, that's called chronic stress and it does more than just make you miserable in that moment, It can and will gradually eat away at your brain and cause illness in your body. " I do not believe this is supported by the citation. If it is, could we clean up the sentence structure and use a neutral point of view? Brain atrophy is already discussed under the "Psychology" heading.

Under "Development" heading: "Chronic stress also has a lot of illnesses and health care problems other than mental that comes with it. Severe chronic stress for long periods of time can lead to an increased chance of catching illnesses such as diabetes, cancer, depression, heart disease and Alzheimer's disease." This is attributed to the same source as above. Unclear if supported. If it is, can we clean up language? Chronic stress is associated with other illnesses and health care burdens? Diabetes, cancer, depression, heart disease and Alzheimer's disease are not typically "caught".

Under "History in research" heading: "By the 1990s, "stress" had become an integral part of modern scientific understanding in all areas of physiology and human functioning, and one of the great metaphors of Western life. Focus grew on stress in certain settings, such as workplace stress, and stress management techniques were developed. The term also became a euphemism, a way of referring to problems and eliciting sympathy without being explicitly confessional, just "stressed out". It came to cover a huge range of phenomena from mild irritation to the kind of severe problems that might result in a real breakdown of health. In popular usage, almost any event or situation between these extremes could be described as stressful. During this time society spent less attention to the actual danger and severeness to mental health, this society might not have cared about those consequences of what we say or do. We might not agree that those consequences of being harsh to another individual verbally is to be considered abuse but they nonetheless have costs that we all pay." Again attributed to same source but unclear if supported. Unclear how "metaphor for Western life" is supported? Last few sentences don't make sense? POV changes to first person? 47.55.88.81 (talk) 21:47, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Should I add a section about the effects to the immune system

Stress and the immune system interlink as fight or flight increases your chance of a pathogen entering your body. Stress boosts your immune system in a way that is fine for fight or flight but not for exams Churay613 (talk) 21:16, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

Hi Churay613. The immune system is already mentioned several times in this article, so I am not quite sure. However, maybe it is a good idea to have a separate section about the immune system. Also, please make sure not to use a WP:primary source. Lova Falk (talk) 13:37, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

Hi again Churay613! I see that you tried to start your section. I strongly advise you not to use your mobile phone, but to use a computer. It is hard enough when you are new to do everything correctly. Friendly, Lova Falk (talk) 09:04, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

Thanks I will put the section in on a computer. Under Biology of Stress is a paragraph on the immune system. Should I put the section here and move anything else into another paragraph? Churay613 Churay613 (talk) 19:15, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

I created a subsection for you! Please, if you find anything there that is not relevant to the immune system, to Biology of stress above. Happy editing! Lova Falk (talk) 14:04, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

Thank you very much, I will enjoy editing it. Churay613 Churay613 (talk) 19:13, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

What is the name of the section you have created as I have found 2 under the immune system? Churay613 (talk) 19:15, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

Stress and the immune system

The whole section seems to be uneditable. If anyone can fix this please do. Churay613 Churay613 (talk) 21:14, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

The immune system is a medical topic, requiring WP:MEDRS sources. Linking stress and the multiorgan immune system in clinical research that would generate international clinical guidelines, systematic reviews, and government advisories (WP:MEDASSESS, left pyramid) seems to be beyond the ability to control experimental designs in clinical trials, as there are no MEDRS sources to support the section. Zefr (talk) 21:33, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

Churay613 I am sorry it didn't work out for you. Lova Falk (talk) 07:12, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

Stress is linked to the immune system due to fight or flight. This increases the chances of getting injured and pathogens entering the body, so the immune system has to be ready to kill the pathogens. Churay613 (talk) 08:54, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

The book, 7 and a half lessons about the brain, is an exceptionally poor source which both of you used for content on immune effects. We need WP:MEDASSESS (top of left pyramid) sources for such content. Zefr (talk) 16:26, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

I did not use that source. Churay613 (talk) 21:03, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

Inadequate sourcing

This revert was justified by the absence of WP:BMI/WP:MEDRS sources. Sourcing for most of the content was a) by a particularly weak, unscientific book (by Barrett), b) references 5+ years out of date, and c) no references. The writing quality was also substandard. Please review WP:MOS and find BMI/MEDRS reviews published within the past 5 years. Zefr (talk) 05:23, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

I am categorically against deletion for reason 5+ years. The rules say about 5 years as a desirable period and mainly for adding new information. This will have a devastating effect on Wikipedia if we delete information from all medical articles with sources older than 5 years, there will be little left. Moreover, the subsection Chronic disease had completely consensus information, if it was indicated in the 2017 review for example, what grounds are there to consider it "outdated" now? I'll comment on the rest of the edits later. Zemleroika11 (talk) 16:02, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Additionally, you deleted this "Similarly, the effects that acute stressors have on the immune system may be increased when there is perceived stress and/or anxiety due to other events. For example, students who are taking exams show weaker immune responses if they also report stress due to daily hassles.[45] " with reliable source Graham J., Christian L., Kiecolt-Glaser J. (2006). "Stress, Age, and Immune Function: Toward a Lifespan Approach". Journal of Behavioral Medicine. 29 (4): 389–400.

Also Coping subsection and mechanism of Psychopathology with reliable sources. Zemleroika11 (talk) 04:38, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Hi @Zemleroika11: When reading your arguments, I thought that you had a case for this one: "the effects that acute stressors have on the immune system may be increased..." even though your source was old, almost 20 years. That statement was based on several other articles, and therefore not primary. But when I put it in the same place as you had put it, I realised (too late, so I reverted myself) that it was completely out of place in the section about chronic stress. You talk about acute stressors, and there is long section on Biology of stress. I couldn't fit it in properly. But just to let you know that I tried! Lova Falk (talk) 08:22, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

This example PubMed search for article key words of "stress, immune system, review" displays the challenge for finding good review sources for the article. Issues raised by Zemleroika about stress and chronic disease, student stress and the immune system, coping with stress, and psychopathology from stress are poorly supported by reviews in general, consistently because they are difficult to design and control variables in clinical research. When reviews are published, they are nearly all in weak, non-clinical journals, which further confirms that the topics are difficult to study and have not reached verification of concepts and clarity for discussing in the encyclopedia. Zefr (talk) 16:43, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Zefr, its your WP:OR. Please, use argumentation for the impossibility of using these sources from the rules of Wikipedia Zemleroika11 (talk) 01:35, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

WP:AGE MATTERS and WP:MEDDATE (within 5 years). If perceived stress could be strictly managed in clinical studies, there would be more certainty in experimental designs, resulting in clearer conclusions. But such controls appear difficult to establish, resulting in a dearth of good reviews on related stress topics. Authors of the articles retrieved in the search admitted this as a limitation.

WP:OR only applies to article content; on the talk page for assessing changes to the article, a search of literature is a place to show relevant WP:BMI reviews.

You can vary the PubMed search terms yourself, and provide the results here for other editors to review to consider for changes in article content and sources. Zefr (talk) 17:49, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

Authors of nearly any medical article admit some limitations. It is not the reason to omit such theme in wikipedia. This theme is clearly not fringe and by definition (perceived factor in nearly any psychological research) there are limititations.

It is not difficult to find good more fresh review sources about psychological stress and immune systems.

For example - https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1074-7613%2821%2900357-5

Haykin H, Rolls A. The neuroimmune response during stress: A physiological perspective. Immunity. 2021 Sep 14;54(9):1933-1947. doi: 10.1016/j.immuni.2021.08.023. PMID: 34525336; PMCID: PMC7615352.

But my point is that there is no need to delete existing data with links to secondary sources (unless they are very questionable). Because there are not enough editors who could update the information immediately. Zemleroika11 (talk) 13:38, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

A review like the one offered is based entirely on in vitro and early-stage lab research (a reason why it's published in Immunity rather than a rigorous clinical journal), and therefore is a source with preliminary information at the lowest level of evidence-quality - see WP:MEDASSESS, bottom of left pyramid. The article needs better review sources. Zefr (talk) 18:31, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

I have already answered this, that the guidelines MEDRS MEDASSETS require secondary sources, reviews. There are no specific requirements for the studies described in the review. And why should there be a clinical journal if the article is not about the disorder, but about the patterns of normal reactions of the body? Zemleroika11 (talk) 17:09, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

Taking the lede as a simple example, every sentence applies to MEDRS/BMI-based information. When editors can see recent (since 2020) reviews in reputable life science/clinical journals, then the article will be improved. Zefr (talk) 21:57, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

Do you think Statpearls Chu review, which you added, is better? It mentions the immune system, but it's written in a terrible way. "When exposure to stress is chronic, the sympathetic nervous system, including the HPA axis, is activated." HPA is not a part of SNS Zemleroika11 (talk) 10:59, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

Btw I took this and similar issues with sources here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Large-scale_deletions_with_%22outdated%22_or_not_extremely_perfect_sources_as_the_reason Zemleroika11 (talk) 17:14, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

This part in that piece is about chronic stress "if they also report stress due to daily hassles" The point is that if there is chronic stress, then an additional acute one (infection) aggravates (or in this case reveals) the overall effect on the immune system. Zemleroika11 (talk) 01:40, 5 March 2025 (UTC)